From the The GLM Podcast, Aug 23, 2023:
Play from 27:10 to 35:00 to hear Corey Miller’s approach to dialoging with the LDS testimony.
BOA notes from this video’s content:
The Testimony is bedrock for their worldview.
The Testimony in Mormonism is often very wrote.
Example the glove illustration = 5 points of testimony.
1. Book of Mormon is the word of God
2. Joseph is a prophet
3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one true church
Testimony quote from “Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message” by Corey Miller & Ross Anderson:
p.16:
“I bear you my testimony. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God!
I know the Book or Mormon is the word of God.
And I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints is the one true church”
A testimony is often presented with great emotional tenacity.
A testimony is used both offensively and defensively.
Those talking to LDS missionaries are often encouraged to pray to receive a testimony.
Although not essential doctrine, discussing testimony is an essential dialog.
They have to see their over reliance on a subjective experience as a sole criterion of truth as problematic.
Corey’s plan to address this: at 30:22
Police lineup illustration:
Which person do you pick as the perpetrator?
LDS are familiar with the Grove experience, where Methodists and Presbyterians weren’t to be followed, Joseph Smith was told to join none of them.
Twist this to ask about:
1. Salt Lake LDS
2. Fundamentalist LDS
3. Community of Christ LDS church
4. All 400 splinter groups, since JS’s death
Primary Questions:
They all bear the same testimony, but how do I decide which of them is true?
Are they all correct?
So, it’s possible to be deceived by their personal testimony?
LDS view of testimony, 5 elements:
For a complete treatment of this subject please read the following article by Corey Miller (included with his permission):
Moroni 10:4
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Here’s a proposed hypothetical discussion with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints missionaries or members, concerning their testimony, utilizing Corey Miller’s police lineup analogy:
LDS: Ding Dong, Hi, We’re from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, may we tell you about our church.
Christian: Thanks for taking your time to speak with me, go right ahead.
Time goes by:
Christian: Thanks for that information, I appreciate your passion, and your concern for me.
Christian: I’ve been studying your church and I’ve found two sources of information that appear to shed doubt on the truth of your beliefs. One is the CES Letter that describes many problems with church History, the Book of Mormon itself, the Book of Abraham, anachronisms, Joseph Smiths polygamy, failed prophecies and many other issues. The other source of information is your own Gospel Topics Essays on your own website that collaborates the primary points of the problems listed in the CES Letter.
Christian: I’ve been reading that there are a few topics from those sources that are some of the primary reasons that LDS members are leaving the church. Those topics are History, the Book of Abraham (which questions Joseph Smiths status as a prophet), and his polygamy. Would you like to discuss these issues?
LDS: Oh those are just secondary issues, (BOA has actually heard that objection), let me bear you my testimony:
Christian: Please do!
LDS: After earnestly seeking God in prayer, He has given me the following testimony:
I testify that God lives and that He loves me,
that Jesus Christ is my Savior,
that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God,
that the Book of Mormon is true,
that our current church president has been called by God to be his living prophet,
and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one true church on this earth.
LDS: And furthermore since our Heavenly Father loves us, and would never lie to us or deceive us, he will only manifest his truth to us, as Moroni 10:4 attests.
LDS: You do agree that God would never lie to us, right?
Christian: Yes, I believe that God is Truth.
Christian: Well thanks for telling me that, I can tell that you’re very passionate about your testimony
Christian: I do want to affirm that testimony’s from God can be very powerful and compelling, that said I do have a few thoughts about the best use of a personal testimony.
Christian: I’ve actually met a person from Warren Jeffs FLDS group, and I know of a number of other LDS splinter groups. They all quote Moroni 10:4 and they all give similar testimonies that their church is the one true church, and that their prophet is God’s chosen prophet. Many of them contradict your belief that polygamy should no longer be practiced, and in fact claim that it is God’s will.
Christian: When an FLDS member bears their testimony that their church is the one true church, and that their prophet is the one true prophet, and that polygamy is for today, do you believe them?
LDS: Actually no.
Christian: Ok, now I’m a little confused, they are bearing their testimony according to Moroni 10:4 as you are, and they claim that is from the same God described in the Book or Mormon that you believe in. You told me that I can trust a testimony when a person earnestly prays, and that God doesn’t lie. You just said that you don’t believe their testimony, so why should I trust yours?
Testimony discussion part two, comparison to Islam, objective truth tests:
LDS: I just know that God won’t lie to me, and that He has given me my testimony.
Christian: As I said earlier I don’t devalue personal testimonies, but I do wonder if their are objective tests to confirm the truth of a testimony.
LDS: Like what for example?
Christian: Have your heard of the Muslim Shahada?
the Shahada (Arabic: ash-shahādah), means “the testimony” or “the declaration of faith.”
It is the central creed of Islam and one of the Five Pillars of Islam.
English translation: “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.”
Christian: The Muslim Shahada or testimony is said with passion and the full belief that is from God, could you quote it as your testimony, do you believe it?
LDS: No, I couldn’t quote it as truth, because I do not believe it to be true.
Christian: Why should I doubt the testimony of a sincere Muslim? How do I test the truth of their testimony?
LDS: I’m not sure how to test it, what do you have in mind?
Testimony discussion part three, question of answered prayer:
Christian: OK, a few things to test a testimony. First the idea of answered prayer.
Christian: BOA Plea: My “Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints” friends say that they have prayed for the truth, and for a testimony concerning Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and the Book or Mormon, and the prophets, and the church. What if their is truth in the counter information such as all of the issues brought up in the Gospel Topics Essays, CES Letter, etc.? Could this counter information qualify as a answer to your prayer as well? In other words what if the counter information is the answer to your prayers, that it is not true?
LDS: Hmm, I never really thought about the answer being not true?
Testimony discussion part four, subjective feeling vs objective truth, plus my testimony:
Christian: Secondly concerning testing a testimony:
Wouldn’t a testimony that includes objective truth be superior to won that is merely a subjective feeling?
I would call this Testimony Plus!
LDS: I’m not sure that it’s just a feeling.
Christian: I also have a testimony that I have prayed about, it’s that Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life, that we are all sinners, that we can trust fully and only on Christ’s work on the cross for our salvation. That Jesus has the paid the price for my sin fully and that I can put my faith in Him as my Lord and my Savior. In fact I have.
Christian: In addition to this I have many objective testable reasons to back up my faith in Him.
See bestofapogetics.com for all of them, but a few categories are:
Arguments for the existence of God, arguments for the reliability of scripture, fulfilled prophecy, archeological evidence for the historical veracity of scripture.
Christian: Lastly, I also have a testimony that I have rigorously examined the truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and found them to be unconvincing.
Examples:
I’ve discovered that Joseph Smith fails as a prophet (example when claiming that he could translate the Book of Abraham and it was proved false).
I reject the idea that the church needed to be restored as in:
Matthew 16:18 King James Version
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
LDS: I’ll have to think about that
Christian: Please do, thanks again for caring enough about me to knock on my door and spend your time with me. I’ll certainly be praying for you that you find The Truth.
Here’s my contact information, please feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions.
What if your LDS Testimony is Wrong?
Time 12:26
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
“What are we supposed to do when we encounter a spirit are we supposed to just believe it?”
“No, we are supposed to test it”
1 John 4:2,3
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist,
1 John 4:5,6
They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Are you listening to spirits that are from the world, and that deceive the world, or are you listening to us, that is the apostles?
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
BOA Question: In what ways does the LDS church doctrine fail the test of Deuteronomy 13:1-3?
“Supernatural experiences do not automatically indicate truth“
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
“How do know that if our experiences aren’t a strong delusion sent by God because you refused to love the truth?“
“Do you have a second witness to the truth?”
“But, I feel good, and their is good fruit”
Response:
Two reasons to doubt feelings:
1. Our feelings are affected by sin
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Genesis 6:5
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
2. Our feelings can be deceived
“It is fare more compelling if a spirit makes us feel good about something that’s false”
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
What about the sincerity of our convictions?
Response: the 911 terrorists and the pharisees, were they not sincere?
“Conviction and sincerity of belief, does not automatically indicate truth”
1 Thessalonians 5:21
but test everything; hold fast what is good.
John 8:31,32
The Truth Will Set You Free
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
BOA Questions:
1. Have you ever spoken to LDS members and how have you handled their testimony?
2. Has this discussion prompted any of your own ideas about how to handle the LDS testimony?
3. What in this lesson was helpful, and what parts could help you determine truth?
4. If multiple worldviews determine truth by subjective experience, how is this best tested?
4. From GLM: “Are we really meant to feel something, experience something, and then let that experience become an untouchable, irrefutable truth?”
6. To my “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” friends, are you willing to “test everything” against scripture, even your testimony?
Additional Info:
Who is Corey Miller:
https://ratiochristi.org/people/corey-miller/
Corey Miller, PhD, is the President/CEO of Ratio Christi (2015-Present). While he grew up in Utah as a seventh generation Mormon, he came to Christ in 1988…
ChatGPT definitions:
1. Mormon Fundamentalist church:
The term “Mormon fundamentalist” refers to groups who separated from the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) when the LDS Church officially discontinued the practice of polygamy in 1890. These groups often emphasize doctrines and practices that the LDS Church has either abandoned, repudiated, or put in abeyance, particularly polygamy
2. Community of Christ Mormon church:
The Community of Christ is a religious organization with roots in the Latter Day Saint movement, emerging as a separate entity from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) following the death of Joseph Smith in 1844. They are also known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS) and are distinct from the LDS Church in several key areas, including their views on the Book of Mormon, leadership, and social issues like gender and marriage.
3. How many splinter groups are there from the original LDS church:
There have been over 400 LDS splinter groups formed since the founding of Mormonism. One source estimates that there are over 170 organizations that trace their faith tradition to Joseph Smith Jr and the Book of Mormon. These groups have emerged from various factors, including disagreements over leadership, doctrine, and practice.
Here’s a more detailed look at the splinter groups:
Original Divisions: After Joseph Smith’s death, multiple groups emerged, each claiming to be the true heir to his vision. Brigham Young and the Twelve Apostles led the largest group, which is now known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
RLDS (now Community of Christ) Split: A significant division occurred after the Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS) experienced a leadership transition crisis, leading to numerous other groups.
Fundamentalist Churches: Some groups, like the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), maintain more traditional practices, including polygamy.
Other Groups: Numerous other splinter groups exist, often with differing theological interpretations and practices.
Ongoing Divisions: Divisions continue to occur as groups grapple with evolving social and political issues
Book recommendation, this is the book featured in the first video of this topic: